WDEL Blog: Allan Loudell

Millennials giving up on Obama and the Dems?

The latest polling on the attitudes of the so-called, Millennial generation ought to send chills up Democratic spines.

Perhaps showing their generation's impatience, significant numbers are giving up on the President, don't support the President's health-care overhaul, and are disinclined to enroll for insurance. Most stunning, a majority of the under-25 crowd would throw the President out of office.

It's not that they're necessarily embracing the Republicans; it's just that they're sitting out politics. Still, that could really hurt the Dems in the mid-term elections and even in 2016.

Both Republicans and Democrats would be chagrined over which programs Millennials would cut.



Posted at 7:28pm on December 4, 2013 by Allan Loudell

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Comments on this post:

Thu, Dec 5, 2013 7:02am
Excuse me? Where did you say the fire was?

The very first thing that jumped out from the results of this poll, was how it forced one into saying they disproved of the President... Even I, would have answered every single one of these questions negatively, fully knowing that this is the best president we have, and will probably see in our lifetimes... (For those first reading that remark, remember that George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, FDR, Harry Truman, Ronald Reagan, and Bill Clinton all had parts of the nation who hated them, perhaps even more than do Obama. The claim is based on how history will see them, not on how their contemporaries will see them... Remember half the country actually left the nation when Lincoln was elected!)....

There is a reason we disapprove of the president. He has not called out the despicable Republicans for what they are. We feel he should have circumvented the media, explained to the American people just how bad everything Republicans have done is hurting the middle-class. How Congress will only pass legislation if it gives the wealthy more free stuff. All feel the president has made his own bed by not doing what FDR did, and make the Republicans the scapegoats for the bad economy (Jobs bill still waiting Republican votes for passage) as well as everything that is wrong with the whole world. (In the 30's, all the wealthy Republicans all thought Hitler was a great man, making it politically impossible for Roosevelt to clip his wings early).. All feel that we have an ineffective president who cannot seem to overpower the biggest enemy we have seen in our lifetimes, which is our corporate malfeasance rampant throughout America.

From a Millennial's perspective, it is like having one's dad keep a dead-beat mom onboard, and not kick her out of the house. The children are the ones who have to suffer... It is not that they dislike the Dad; they love him. But their lives are miserable because he won't divorce the wicked witch of the West and move on...

It can be summed up as more of a frustration with not getting things done... than a dislike of the person or goals being delivered.

There is truth that since the second term has begun, Obama has not used his overwhelming advantage of power to squash the Republican out of existence. Like being a child again, and having a Dad who won't call the exterminator so every day we have to contend with dealing with a massive invasion of cockroaches within one's dwelling. Just as such a one would want to take their boots and start stomping across a floor covered with billions of cockroaches... the Millennials want someone to stomp out Republicans exactly the same way.... They see the truth. They are the ones who aren't getting jobs. They see the Republicans are the very reason they aren't getting work in the field for which they trained.

This study poll does not even give them that option to express. It is obvious from talking to most Millennials, that Obama is now deemed weak because he works with, compromises with, and treats as equals, the most hated form of human existence known to man, The Republican Party. Even The Westboro Baptist Church has higher likability ratings than does the current Republican Party.

So why does anyone even dealing with them? They tried to shut down the country, for heaven's sakes...

No one here has yet commented on the news that Republican House of Representatives will adjourn with the lowest number of bills ever passed in a session, ever, across the 234 years of America's existence. The House is blaming the bi-partisan Senate. Boehner's flippant remark? Well, it looks like Congress has done it's job...

To the Millennials, that statement outlines the exact root of all their problems....

Point is, this poll only gives them, as me, the only option to state that we are not satisfied with Obama's performance...

Eliminate every single Republican in office across the entire United States of America, then that would turn around instantly....

Time to start stomping cockroaches. That is what Republicans are.

Thu, Dec 5, 2013 7:36am
Allan Loudell seems to think "millennials" should care about politics -- just because he does.

The logical flaw here is if millennials don't care about politics, then they probably won't vote. So politicians don't need to worry about them (which they generally don't).

He also misses the obvious point: Millennials are at the point in life where they expect not to get sick and they don't have a lot of spare cash. So, they don't like being told they must buy health insurance (so old farts can pay less and get covered for pre-existing conditions).

For the record, few young people of any generation have cared much about politics. Baby boomers didn't. They cared about not getting drafted but not politics, per se. And many of them really hated MacBird and Tricky Dick (Current millennial disapproval of Obama is mild by comparison).

If you want to get millennials involved in politics, bring back the draft. But now they follow sports talk, not right-wing talk.

Thu, Dec 5, 2013 9:35am
Millennials (Obama-Youth) don't trust big government... Snowden's revelations about N.S.A. spying on everyone's phones/internet really put a damper on trusting government.
But the real turning point for Millennials shifting against Democrats has been the reality of forced health-care insurance they don't want or need... not only that, this forced "product" is expensive and has pathetic web security/privacy. If Amazon performed this poorly, no one would use them... but Amazon works and has good security to protect your identity from I.D. thieves.


Thu, Dec 5, 2013 10:01am
And again I say... the Republicans need to embrace the Tea Party/Libertarians if they want to win in 2016. Millennials distrust both sides of the political aisle, and are more likely to vote for a small government/Libertarian candidate than a Chris Christie or Hillary (or Elizabeth Warren).

The Republicans also need to gain back union support...not all unions are bad; it's mainly just the public sector unions that need to be broken up/removed. Look at Detroit, if you don't know how unions can destroy a thriving city and decimate hope of recovery. Now that the "Big-D" has finally been allowed to file Chapter 11, they will have a real chance to recover.

Thu, Dec 5, 2013 11:13am
Earl: Tea baggers are NOT libertarians. They are nothing like libertarians. They are the religious right who hate taxes. They are perfectly willing to have wars and to use government to tell everyone else how to live. To regulate others' sex lives, reproductive choices, preferred mind-altering chemicals, entertainment choices. Tea baggers have their noses in other people's business. They are the antithesis of libertarians. They are just cheap and angry. They are willing to have government spend money on what they want, just not on anything that benefits anybody else.

Thu, Dec 5, 2013 11:15am
bill: Maybe you know about tea-baggers but you know nothing about the Tea Party.

BTW, speaking of Tea Partiers taking the lead and offering real hope and real change...check out Rand Paul (Conservative Libertarian) in DETROIT!


Mike from Delaware
Thu, Dec 5, 2013 1:22pm
EarlGrey said: "Millennials (Obama-Youth) don't trust big government... Snowden's revelations about N.S.A. spying on everyone's phones/internet really put a damper on trusting government.
But the real turning point for Millennials shifting against Democrats has been the reality of forced health-care insurance they don't want or need... not only that, this forced "product" is expensive and has pathetic web security/privacy. If Amazon performed this poorly, no one would use them... but Amazon works and has good security to protect your identity from I.D. thieves.


Well said EarlGrey. I read another article last night also saying essentially what you've posted. The Millenials are not happy with either party, but seem to be even more ticked off with Obama and his DEM cohorts.

Now if only the GOP/TEA folks can keep from becoming over confident and doing stupid stuff, and picking scary folks like Christine O'Donnell as candidates, just maybe 2014 can be a very good year for stopping this craziness. It's one thing to provide healthcare for all [a noble thing to do], its something else to make the mess Obama and his henchmen have made. Obama and his Obamacare plan bring to mind those famous words of Ronald Reagan: Hi I'm from the government and I'm here to help. The Millenials would appear to have had a bowel full of the government's "help".

Thu, Dec 5, 2013 2:09pm
Gawd, what idiots! Nobody wants health insurance - until they get sick or injured. Then, of course, the slackers show up at the ER, don't pay and the rest of us ending up picking up the cost. I guess that's the system you all prefer.

And everybody who gets health insurance through an employer pays for it. And they have little choice in the matter. The employer picks the plan and takes money that is considered part of what an employee costs the company to pay for it. It's money employees don't get directly. It's a choice employees don't have. But I know you all find it more satisfying to bitch than to really look at how things work.

Thu, Dec 5, 2013 3:33pm
What we really want is free health-care... Obamacare is the closest for now, until we land single-payer. That is what we want.

Get rid of Republicans.

Thu, Dec 5, 2013 4:01pm
There is no such thing as FREE health-care! Get it Progressives?

Why would anyone want to give the government even more control/power when they can't properly do the job at hand? INCONCEIVABLE!-Vizzini

Rid this country of Progressives and we might just survive... that includes Progs like Boehner.

Thu, Dec 5, 2013 4:27pm
No, what we need is single-payer health-care: Cheaper, more efficient, more comprehensive. Canada has single-payer and the percentage of G.D.P. Canada spends on health-care is about half the U.S.'s. Similar figures from Britain the E.U. countries. And those countries lead the U.S. in health measures, just as they do in education measures.

But you tea baggers would rather see money go to the military, than 'frills' like health-care and education. And you'd rather see rich people get even richer while others struggle to get by. And you all call it Christian!

Thu, Dec 5, 2013 7:21pm
Thankfully, the millenials see through the deception of this administration. Hopefully, it's in time to turn things around. Perhaps it will be their votes that usher in the Allies in the TEA party and liberate America from the Obama tyranny and also send Harry Hitler back to Nevada.

Thu, Dec 5, 2013 10:08pm
Earl. You are uninformed. You said nothing is free. What a silly man. Being a Tea Partier you are probably completely ignorant of how big business works, but if you were knowledgeable, you would already know that the Fed loans the Big Banks $80 billion of free money every month......


Nothing is free... Ever heard of a newspaper? Oh.. that's right.. you are the one American who still listens to Breitbart...

Point is, if you are in the one percent... everything is free. So, make the one percent pay for all of the 99% healthcare needs... after all, the 1% is getting free money... it doesn't cost them a dime....

Ha, if there was no such thing as myths... the Tea Party would never exist.

Thu, Dec 5, 2013 10:12pm
Problem is, it is a long way to the election... The main campaign issue will most likely ride on something that has not yet even happened....

But Allan, before making any statements (not sure if you did) on how millennials are upset over insurance increased costs (many are)... just remember that only 13 out of 1000 Americans are hurt by Obamacare. 987 of every thousand either benefit or have no change.

Thu, Dec 5, 2013 10:17pm
And I am glad Earl is a huge fan of the Princess Bride... Just now saw that... I would like to know where Earl gets his 6 fingered gloves...


Thu, Dec 5, 2013 10:21pm
Or Mr. Pizza... maybe they will elect a high gluten crust, with tons of white pepper, vote for tomato sauce and fill Congress with pepperoni and mushrooms...

That made as much sense as what you wrote. :)

On another note, I heard from another source that in Texas they held their annual yearly Tea Party Congress and only 6 people showed up.. IN TEXAS OF ALL PLACES!!!

(and I thought the two of you were the only ones.)

Mike from Delaware
Thu, Dec 5, 2013 10:55pm
I believe we need a national health coverage plan & tend to think that the Single Payer plan, modified to address the problems Canadians have with their system, would probably the way to go.

However, after watching those dolts in the White House totally bungle the job of launching Obamacare, while I still believe we need a Single Payer System, we need to wait until this batch of incompetents are out of office.

Fri, Dec 6, 2013 12:10am
kavips: I know how the Fed is creating the illusion of free money...but nothing in life is truly free except for eternal life thanks to Jesus.

..."Let us print the money instead.’ The most immoral path of all. Because what that is saying is let us quietly steal a certain amount from every pound in circulation, let us steal a certain amount from every pound saved in building societies, in national savings, from every person who has been thrifty.” ~Maggie Thatcher


No other country throughout history has successfully printed themselves out of debt...not even the great Roman Empire.

...and yes the Princess Bride is a classic. No six fingered gloves for me ;)
No more rhymes now I mean it...anyone want a peanut?

Fri, Dec 6, 2013 10:48am
Mike... The Play Station 4 just rolled out, and the X-bone, the new Microsoft game feature, is currently also having a disastrous roll out right now. It's terrible, and it is right before Christmas. Are you following it?

Seems like the prime feature which causes communication between devices is not working at all when the system gets overloaded...

What, you haven't heard? Oh Gee.. Wonder Why! Could it be there are no anti-Sony or anti-Microsoft citizens, crying to the media every time they forget to put a colon in before the double slashes... .

Why yes. Yes it is...
Anyone who thinks a computer system that doesn't handle the volume upon launch is a reason to throw away the whole system, is not very smart.

Fri, Dec 6, 2013 11:25am
Kavips: Bill Gates is a DICTATOR. Steve Jobs was Syrian. And Sony? "Those wonderful folks who brought you Pearl Harbor."

Fri, Dec 6, 2013 11:37am
Sorry but the launch of ACA is not the real problem...it's the problems faced once the system actually does function. No real security is set up for the health-care database (I.D. thieves data-mining dream come true) and the prices are much higher than were promised. Neither the security problems nor the higher-than-promised prices are simple "glitches" in the new operating system...and no one is FORCED to purchase those game systems (or be fined)...things that make you go hmmmm.

Isn't it interesting that it has required the PRIVATE sector to fix the "glitches" of ACA...equally interesting is how Amazon was able to handle millions of orders/requests on Cyber-Monday with none of these "glitches". If they had, no one would use Amazon and another competitor would quickly rise to fill the void left by their absence.

Mike from Delaware
Fri, Dec 6, 2013 1:37pm
Kavips: for me the lieing about folks being able to keep their policies, no matter how they try to spin it makes their word null in void.

As I've kidded with some co-workers over this, you can at least understand why Clinton lied about Monica, he had to go home to Hillary who probably could clean his clock in a fight - heh heh.

He's lost my trust. So folks who use weasle words and that's what Obama and his henchmen did. So I have no faith in this program doing what its been "sold" to us as doing, other than sticking it to folks and costing them more money for coverage they don't want.

Golly, Obama will not go down in history as being the biggest liar in Presidential history. Well he got himself a legacy, just as Clinton did - heh heh.

Mike from Delaware
Fri, Dec 6, 2013 1:38pm
typo Obama will go down in history as being the biggest liar in Presidential history.

Fri, Dec 6, 2013 4:19pm
Politicians lie? Oh, no! Say it isn't so! I'm shocked - shocked! Next week: MikeFromDelaware finds out about Santa.
Even worse: Somebody around here thinks he gets at "The Truth" just because somebody agrees to be interviewed. It's sad when somebody doesn't know he's being played.

Mike from Delaware
Fri, Dec 6, 2013 7:04pm
Politicians lie, but this was a serious lie that's costing people money, remember the uninformed electorate votes their wallet. I heard Pelosi offering spin this morning on the radio( I believe NPR). She sounded like a weasel offering non-sense.

Obama tried to be slick, but it has caught up to him. Frankly he should be impeached, but of course that won't happen, but it should.

Sat, Dec 7, 2013 6:33am
Impeach Obama? Is getting Biden in there really so important to your "nobody's heard of Delaware" self-esteem? Or do you want to impeach both of them and give us president Boner?
And if you look back at all the presidential misdeeds (at least those that have come to light), Obama's "lie" would rank pretty low on the list of "high crimes and misdemeanors." But go ahead. An impeachment proceeding is a good way for tea baggers to stir up the crazies and to paralyze the government for several months.
Where were you with your impeachment talk when the drunken little rich twerp from Texas was selling everybody a bill of goods about "weapons of mass destruction?" People actually got killed because of his lies.

Mike from Delaware
Sat, Dec 7, 2013 9:59am
Billsmith: I agree with you completely on this. While I may believe the so called "greatest Prez in our lifetime" should be impeached, that doesn't mean it would be the best thing for the nation. No I don't believe VP Biden should be Prez, nor would I want to see a Prez Bonner, Boner, Bohner, or however his name is spelled, I also don't want to see a Prez Nancy Pelosi either.

I also agree with you about Bush Jr. His lie and stupid actions that put us in a long costly, deadly, war with Iraq should have called for his impeachment too.

I'm simply tired of these "bozo's" getting away with the crap they do that hurts the little guy and they all seem to have Teflon sprayed on them, be they GOP/TEA or DEMS, as it just washes off, no ill effect on them, their bank accounts, never any jail time, etc.

But I still believe that Obama should be impeached, but I wouldn't recommend the GOP/TEA trying to do that. Better for them to lay low and allow this train wreck to continue so that they have a better chance of winning in 2014 and 2016. An impeachment hearing would only fire up the DEMS and hurt the GOP/TEA folks in 2014. In fact, my guess is the DEM leadership probably is hoping the House GOP/TEA folks do start impeachment hearings, soon after the holidays. I just hope the GOP/TEA folks are smart enough to avoid that trap.

Sat, Dec 7, 2013 9:59am
I don't know of the lie Mike speaks... Can you illuminate for us this lie which you allege Obama supposedly told?

Sat, Dec 7, 2013 10:10am
I read further. I still don't know of the lie Mike speaks.. But impeaching a president because you seem to be bitter about your own life, is rather dangerous...

Only a real nut, would impeach someone over the tiny silliest of excuses... As with Republicans in the 90's... making the cause for impeachment, is more a condemnation of the accuser for being ridiculous, than it was for the defendant who is being falsely accused...

Most of you don't remember, Republican Henry Hyde standing in front of America on camera, saying the morality of "that President" was beyond all of America's forgiveness, when he himself was currently cheating on his spouse with another married woman as well....

Republicans are the moral equivalent to garden slugs. America will only become a great moral nation again, when we step on all of them and make them go "pop"...

Mike from Delaware
Sat, Dec 7, 2013 11:25am
Kavips: The Obama lie that's been discussed at length in the media, even the liberal media, his many recorded statements, not just once, but many times where the Slickmeister in Chief said: if you like your current healthcare coverage, you can keep your healthcare coverage, period. Yes, I know, Clinton used to be called the Slickmeister, but Bubba was minor league to Barry.

Yes, I've heard Nancy Pelosi's spin trying to make his statements, less of a lie, to no avail. Obama was being slick and weaselly like a used car salesmen, he knew when he said that over and over again that it was a lie, a deliberate lie to get his way.

A lie that cost many Americans money they didn't want to spend to get coverage they don't need or want. They are being forced to buy insurance plans that cover such things they may not want, need, or believe is proper due to religious beliefs: like free abortions, free birth control pills, free mammograms, free pap smears, and yes free colonoscopies. So some single guy doesn't need any of that, not even the colonoscopy until he's 50, but Obama has decreed that too bad, you pay so that women like Sandra Fluke do not have to pay [not even a co-pay] for their female medical things. Seems fair and equal to me.

THAT's the lie I'm discussing. You must be the ONLY American who's not ticked off about that lie. Even loyal Democrats are upset with this lie of your so called "greatest President in our lifetimes".

Problem with telling a whopper of a lie like that is, what else has he lied to the American public about? Your guy really messed up in a serious way. He's lost all credibility with the American public.

Sun, Dec 8, 2013 12:37am
Mike. This is the first I've heard anyone call it a lie. If you actually read the papers you mentioned, you would know that it was the insurance agencies who were dropping the coverage, not the ACA... You would know that the ACA actually grandfathered all plans even if they were not up to par, as long as they were in effect on the date one year after the ACA was passed....

Before I go further... You do know that, right? Everyone should know that. I mean it was all over the media, that insurers were dropping the coverage in order to get more money out of those on their plans, even though the ACA grandfathered all old plans in effect one year from the date the bill was signed...

You do know that right? Seriously, you do, right? How could anyone not know that? Therefore, how can you even hold Obama accountable for something insurance companies decided to do... This was over every single airwave. I'm shocked you don't even know it, otherwise you couldn't write such a bold faced lie yourself... because it almost sounds like you swallowed the whole story, hook, line and sinker.

Let's pretend you and I have an agreement. I say, look if I give you $100 a month, I will do so if you give $30 to the Food Bank. Ok? We agree. I give you $100 and you give $30 to the Food bank... Then suddenly the idea pops into your head... Hey, I don't have to do that... I can keep the $100 for myself... and you do....

How is that MY fault?

So then everyone apparently starts stirring up trouble.. Hey, he promised the Food Bank $30 dollars, and they are not getting it? He was telling a whopper of a lie, I wonder what else he is lying about? He really messed up in a serious way.. He's lost all credibility with the America public....

Dude.. the insurance companies are the culprit.. They reneged on their agreement to grandfather the plans, not the president, just like you in the example reneged on giving $30 to the food bank.

Look it up... Every airwave I heard, including even the conservative Rick Jensen on this very station, WDEL, clearly said it was not Obama who pulled the insurance. It was private plans. Rick even read letters from private insurers on the air that said "We, (the private insurer company), are discontinuing your insurance!"

Private insurers!

So, as in our little agreement, if I sold people on the the idea that you were a decent guy after all because you were giving $30 to the food bank... and then you don't... I get called a liar? Really?

Try reading from a neutral sources instead of wherever you get your wild bizarre stories from....

Mike from Delaware
Sun, Dec 8, 2013 7:58am
Kavips dude: Obama didn't physically pull the policies, but his program made them no longer in compliance & those companies had to update their policies as those old policies were no longer allowed. Obama lied, because he knew all this when he made his many statements. Sure after the nation went into an uproar he told the insurers they could keep those policies for another year. Nice try with the spin.

Sun, Dec 8, 2013 10:36am
No, it was not Obama who pulled the policies. The first time Obama made the statement, it was in the clear context of people with employer-offered plans would be able to stay on those plans. He repeated the statement without being specific so it would appear to include people in the private market, as well.

Insurance companies could have renewed people (through Dec 31st) on the old plans (not meeting the new standards) for another year. They chose to cancel them instead.

Of course, Obama's original statement did not allow for the possibility that some employer-offer plans would not meet the new standards, either. Or that some employers might decide to stop offering coverage and let their employees go to the exchanges.

However, MikeFromDelaware is not in a position to say whether Obama lied. The statement he made was not accurate. A lie is: "a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth." So far, there is no proof of deliberate deception.

In any case, there is no aspect of health care reform that hasn't been botched.

Sun, Dec 8, 2013 11:25am
Mike. you dodged the question of how when YOU promise me something and YOU did not deliver, because I told everyone YOU would act in good faith, I am the one who lied?...

Private insurance companies did not have to break the plans. The sold out Obama and their constituents by doing so... In retrospect, a "stick" should have been inserted into the ACA so that in the event that a private insurer drops a policy without warning, he would pay a $40,000 fine for each policy dropped. That is of course, in retrospect; who would have thought back in 2009 that insurance companies would wind up being so immoral? I think you would see very few policies dropped, had that piece of legislation ever been put in...

Which is why it is rather bizarre that a Methodist would fall for crap like that. Methodists are probably more truthful than many of others of other religions. It's ingrained in you...

Your particular division of religion I think would be the first to call out this lie that Obama didn't tell the truth... In fact, it is puzzling why you are supporting the liars, the opponents of Obamacare instead of what really is true.... Because there if very little truth in all the hype over Obamacare being bad... Some truth, for some people, true, but very little... Obamacare is a negative for only 13 out of 1000 Americans. it is a positive or no-brainer for the other 983 Americans.
It is so un-Methodist of you to not grasp the facts first....

Sun, Dec 8, 2013 11:28am
Mike... one more phrase... Insurance policies update their policies all the time... Each time the do it costs your more money...

So why is the ACA bad because it updates all the policies, which basically make the insurance scams illegal....

You are protecting the insurance scammers, and blaming the cop for them getting busted...

Kind of bizarre. For a Methodist to protect the criminals.

Sun, Dec 8, 2013 11:30am
Basically.... what BillS said....

Mike from Delaware
Sun, Dec 8, 2013 2:26pm
OK, I can't speak about others policies, but my employer made changes to our plan that now (2014), because of Obamacare, have to provide free with no co-pay. These include: free birth control pills, free abortions, free Pap smears, free Mamograms, and free Colonoscopies. I also believe some over the counter meds are also covered free. In prior years all those things (not including the over the counter meds) were offered, but with a co-pay. As you might imagine the monthly premium went up, the deductible went up, & the out of pocket cost went up. So we weren't allowed to keep our fine policy that's served us well for many years, & now are paying far more for our policy, so from where I sit Obama lied. If my employer hadn't made those changes we'd no longer have a plan & would have been forced to buy an Obamacare plan via their fine online website. So that is NOT what Obama said, so he lied. Weasel words to be sure.

Sun, Dec 8, 2013 4:45pm
MikeFromDelaware: Does this mean that because of all the inaccurate statements you've posted online you lied? The meds you get with the free colonoscopy are pretty good and would help you relax.
When you talk about Obama and his "lies," you start sounding like Pizza talking about gays.

Mon, Dec 9, 2013 10:26am
"In any case, there is no aspect of health care reform that hasn't been botched.

Very true...what BillS said ;)

Mike from Delaware
Mon, Dec 9, 2013 10:31am
Billsmith: It is how you look at it. Here's some spin from the LA Times, in their article they said,

"President Obama apologized last week to people whose health insurance was canceled despite his repeated assurances that if you like your policy, it won't change.

The charitable way of putting it is that Obama oversold details of the healthcare-reform law in his speeches.

His critics say he flat-out lied.

This wouldn't even be an issue if Obama had qualified his remarks simply by adding that you'd be able to keep your insurance as long as it meets minimum standards for coverage, which is a big part of what Obamacare is all about.

Here's the thing, though: The rules of the road for healthcare reform have been — and remain — a moving target. For months, not even insurers have known what their requirements would be............

.......It's not my intent to excuse Anthem — or Obama — for misleading people about healthcare reform."


So again why bash me for stating how I view it? Just because my view doesn't match yours doesn't mean I lied, we just don't see it the same way. This isn't a math problem where 2+3=5.

You don't believe Obama lied, fine, I won't bash you or Kavips for being duped, but you shouldn't bash me for believing he did lie and used weasel words. Again, that's why having a dialog with you is a pain, you just can't disagree with someone and not bash them.

The thing you've not gotten from my many posts here over these many months is I'm open to hearing what both sides have to say on a given issue and then will make a decision on what I believe to be correct. You have your agenda and any deviation from that is not tolerated. So for a smooth discussion with you I either have to agree with you [there are times where I do agree with you and say so] or get bashed, not much incentive to dialog with you, to be quite frank.

You see blog dialoging as a blood sport, I see it as the new version of meeting at the "water cooler".

Mon, Dec 9, 2013 1:12pm
MikeFromDelaware: Not quite. I don't KNOW that Obama's statement was a deliberate attempt to deceive (i.e., a lie). Maybe; maybe not. Until some evidence comes out, I'm not prepared to say his statement was a lie. But I'm not ruling it out, either.
If he didn't lie, then it's fair to say that he - one way or another - hadn't done his homework and wasn't on top of things. So if he's not a liar, he's incompetent. Not much of an improvement.
What we see with Obama is what happens - albeit on not so grand a scale - in any workplace with people hired because of reverse discrimination (aka "affirmative action") for jobs for which they are not qualified and from which they can't be fired.

Mike from Delaware
Mon, Dec 9, 2013 3:16pm
Billsmith: I'd say your post above is a fair and reasonable assessment of the situation. I agree.

Mon, Dec 9, 2013 3:50pm
Actually there was an attempt to fire the black president. It was called an election. And guess who won?

So if one goes back through tapes over the past 5 years, one can see cases where Obama qualified his statements with "provided it meets the minimum coverage".. However that part was cut out of sound-bites, as extra stuff always is. We just heard the first half....

Think for a second. Why would he promise below standard coverage? Why would anyone want substandard coverage...?

Mike forgot to add that his new plan has a cap on his expenses. If he gets in a life threatening accident after Jan 1st, he won't lose his house, the most he'll pay is 6,000 dollars. He will lose his house, if it happens before Midnight up to 11:59 Dec. 31st. Mike also forgot to mention that he no longer has a lifetime cap. If he needs treatment for the next couple of years, there is no point in time where his money runs out, and his treatment has to stop. Again he has no protection here until january 1st...

So angry as Mike is with President Obama, don't get too angry you have an accident before January 1st....

And just looking over Mike's benefits, I'm puzzled why he can't see the bargain he is getting. Just one colon endoscopy puts him way ahead....

And there is a difference between bashing someone who is lying and bashing someone who is telling the truth... if someone is lying and they are allowed to lie without factual contradiction, that lie propagates further... A lie needs to be bashed...

Someone telling the truth, is often bashed far harder than a liar is, for the truth is often what we least want to hear. Often we'd rather believe the lies... Just look what they did to Jesus.

Mike equates the two and says "don't bash me for saying Obama lied, and I won't bash you for contradicting me." That is just bad policy all the way around...

Bashing must continue. Lies get exposed by facts; truth gets reinforced by facts.

Mike from Delaware
Mon, Dec 9, 2013 6:20pm
Kavips: they didn't discuss that stuff in our meeting.
Second you get more flies with sugar than vinegar. So bash all you want, I just won't give your comments the weight I used to give them. You owe me an apology for calling me a racist earlier. You see, making such a claim is serious. I replied, Billsmith even replied, you simply ignored it all. So as I take such an accusation seriously I'll just stay away from commenting to you in the future. Be at peace.

Mon, Dec 9, 2013 6:30pm
"Why would anyone want substandard coverage...?"
Kavips: To save money.

And not everyone agrees with those "standards."

Mon, Dec 9, 2013 7:02pm
Kavips: Obama didn't win, as much as Mitt and the tea baggers lost. Voters caught between the rock and the hard place.

But more evidence of the superiority of the Parliamentary System. No waiting for elections. No need to stop everything for a brutal impeachment process. Lose a confidence vote and your out; a shadow government is always there to take over immediately.

Sometimes a party caucus will vote on its own leader (the prime minister) without a change in governments.

The US constitution is almost as big a mess as the implementation of affordable care.

Tue, Dec 10, 2013 12:17am
bill: Interesting point about the Constitution...just this past weekend (December 7th) a group of representatives around the country gathered at Mt. Vernon to discuss a Constitutional Convention.

"The authors of the Constitution included a state-led amendment option as a check on a runaway federal government,” Long said, according to a story in the Northwest Indiana Times. “The dysfunction we see in Washington, D.C., provides an almost daily reminder of why this option is needed now more than ever.”


Mike from Delaware
Tue, Dec 10, 2013 8:48am
Billsmith: Good point about the Parlimentary System. If we had that system here, my guess is Obama would have been challenged to a confidence vote and just might have been given the boot.

I have a question on this though, so in their system the minority government takes over? They don't have a VP. Would you give more details of how it works using our government, say if we had that system in place now what would happen if Obama failed the confidence vote. Thanks !

Tue, Dec 10, 2013 9:22am
MikeFromDelaware: In parliamentary systems, the official opposition has a "shadow cabinet." The "leader of her majesty's loyal opposition" is ready to form a new government as prime minister and the opposition has "critics" in place for each cabinet post, also ready to take over.

Parliamentary democracies often (usually) have more than two parties. If no party has a majority, two or more parties form a coalition to get a majority.

The cliche in the U.S. is people vote for the man, not the party. In parliamentary systems, they vote for the party.
If a prime minister loses a confidence vote but his party retains a majority in the House of Commons, he is expected to resign. The party caucus elects a new leader, whom the Queen summons to form a government.

Parliamentary democracies also don't have fixed elections. They must have one at least five years from the last election but the prime minister is able to call elections any time. The campaign lasts six weeks - period. And each party has it's "team" (leader and cabinet/critics) in place before the election is called.
What we have in this country is essentially a modified version of the British system as it existed in 1787. Their system, not locked into a single document, was able to evolve. Ours did not.

Mike from Delaware
Tue, Dec 10, 2013 1:28pm
Thanks Billsmith. The G.O.P. and DEMS would probably hate such a system.

Wed, Dec 11, 2013 8:44pm
The system has its problems as well. It creates inaction often because taking action will cause the government to fold and create a new one. The new one fails to take action either because the govenment might fold and form a new one. That government fails to take action because a new government might be formed...

So what we go through in elections, they don't. But we have four years of stability, which they yearn for. If you are a businessperson making decisions, not knowing what your taxes may be in short order, cuts down on capital investment.

Wed, Dec 11, 2013 8:46pm
Obama didn't win? Sour Grapes..

Obama is the first president to win over 51% of the popular vote two times, since Eisenhower...

Call it what you will, but all know, you will never give this president the credit he is due... Because he trounced you bad!

Wed, Dec 11, 2013 8:56pm
Lol.. whereas it is true, Mike, you can get a lot more flies with sugar over vinegar... I don't want flies..

What I want is to clean up the lies and sloppy thinking that is prevalent here, radical right wing pronouncements made completely devoid of facts, and fake accusations that have no merit of truth.

There is purity in truth. The opposite of which is a stain...

The truth is the right wing, either in the Tea Party or in the Republican Party, has destroyed all the good that America once was known for being....

Truth is pure; untruths are a stain....

Ever try cleaning up a stain with sugar? I'll take the vinegar. It seems to work.

Mike from Delaware
Wed, Dec 11, 2013 11:16pm
Kavips: Falsely accusing someone of being a racist is not a reasonable thing to do if you're trying to get them to see it your way, that's the sugar vs vinegar thing. Insulting someone is not a good sales tool. All that does is tick the person off which builds up a higher wall of distrust.

I've been interested in your posts here over the months & find most of them to be interesting, but I have little patience for the "Kangraroo Court" approach where someone makes a false accusation in order to tear the person down.
I thought you were better than that. Apparently I was wrong. I've tried to discuss this with you to no avail. Racists come in all shapes, sizes, male. female, black, & white. Be at peace.

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