Ferguson smoulders as autopsy shows Michael Brown was shot 6 times
Now the National Guard have been called out to Ferguson. So much for the debate over the militarization of local police forces. This time, the military - in essence - has been called.
The revelation that Michael Brown was shot six times will only inflame tensions.
And Captain Ron Johnson of the Missouri State Highway Patrol, the African-American who became the public face of the law enforcement response, could only work so many miracles. While he received a stand O when he addressed the Brown family and other neighborhood residents at Ferguson's Greater Grade Church, he also has drawn greater derision from folks on both sides.
This summary of where things stand from The NEW YORK TIMES...
Eyewitness accounts say that Brown (who was also captured on video in a strong-armed robbery minutes before) was charging towards the officer...the first four shots were in HIS ARM, but he continued charging towards the cop... please someone tell what else the law enforcement officer was supposed to do? They are trained to do what he did...
Ron Johnson did a great job settling things down by talking to the locals/real protestors... problem is the looters, violent protestors (some shooting at cops) and trouble-makers are not from Ferguson...the ones who ignored peace (Ron Johnson) just want to riot & be in the news.
Mon, Aug 18, 2014 10:55am
The autopsy provides a classic example that people will draw different conclusions from the same set of facts.
Clearly, the fact that the autopsy shows Michael Brown was shot from the front - not the back - undermines the narrative that he was running away. But, people who view police as oppressors will fixate on the number of shots fired.
On the other side, yes, he appears to have been charging towards the cop...
Mon, Aug 18, 2014 11:57am
Or he was on his knees, hands up over his head when the officer fired the final bullet saying "Die, you piece of dark-skinned scum.."
Mon, Aug 18, 2014 12:04pm
I'm sure you have all heard the foreign press is calling it Fergastan now; in their eyes we are no different than Somalia, albeit, only in states with Republican areas of jurisdiction.
But that is what happens when you elect people who base their decisions only on emotion, and disregard all science and facts regarding the situation. Which, in a nutshell, is why Republican enclaves are no different than those extremists insisting on Sharia law.
Mon, Aug 18, 2014 12:21pm
The other side of the Ron Johnson story is the disingenuousness of the press here, in trying to make out a story that he is getting hit on both sides. It worked here. I'm basing this on Allan's reading of the Guardian article stating just that.
Anyone, and everyone, who ever makes a decision, gets hit on both sides... No one is every happy with every decision ever made. That there are some on both sides who don't want peace in Fergastan, who wish the war would continue, is not unexpected. Both of these on both sides will criticize Ron Johnson for trying to calm things down.
In fact, it could be argued that just even mentioning it, as does the Guardian article and Allan above, undercuts Johnson's amazing effort and gallantry which took the world's collective breath away for a short time.
The question that the Guardian completely falls short on, is a poll of how many feel it was wrong for him to do what the did, and how many feel it was right for him to do what was right.
This illustration IS the problem one finds rampant in the American press. It is a total lack of perspective. For one, most press outlets feel the need to compete against Murdoch's yellow journalism and understandably if someone buys the paper next to yours with the nude off to the side of the cover, you lose. We know that.
But, nudes can't be shown on the radio. So at least here, one would think a sense of perspective could and should be maintained. Far too often, it seems the press gets punked by whomever wants to get "their" story out... In this case, it is those in the newsrooms of the big media outlets who obviously would want more blood and violence on our screens, so people will come inside these last evenings of summer in order to watch...
The reality here, is that Ron Johnson showed how it should be done. Most of the world IS on his side... His story needs to be told, so more people like Ron will emerge from the sidelines, and won't chicken out knowing full well the Murdochs and Fox News will attack him personally for stepping up and stopping the violence, and the rest of the press will cower in silence.
Mon, Aug 18, 2014 12:26pm
"But that is what happens when you elect people who base their decisions only on emotion, and disregard all science and facts regarding the situation. Which in a nutshell, is why Republican enclaves are no different than those extremists insisting on Shari law."~kavips
That type of rhetoric is what causes this type of distrust/hatred of all cops (especially white cops). The autopsy and video of the earlier robbery (i.e. FACTS) back up the cops version of the truth.
But, thanks to the distrust, there is now going to be a THIRD autopsy to confirm the prior two that support the non-racist story as truth.
Mon, Aug 18, 2014 12:33pm
"The reality here, is that Ron Johnson showed how it should be done. Most of the world, IS on his side... His story needs to be told, so more people like Ron will emerge from the sidelines..."
Ron Johnson did do it the right way (versus the earlier over-reaction of the locals), BUT he also said that the police responded correctly last night (with tear gas) due to the escalation from the non-local protestors who only want to loot, cause chaos and take pot-shots at "pigs". That's why the governor has called for the National Guard's help/assistance.
Mon, Aug 18, 2014 12:45pm
Actually no, Earl. This is just negative spin: " from the non-local protesters who only want to loot, cause chaos and take pot-shots at "pigs".
The reality was that a curfew was put in place, and that needed to be enforced...
There are reasonable extensions of exerting control and order, and there are unreasonable extensions of exerting control and order. Ron Johnson was just clearly defining which they were.
Last night's episode was a common-sense action taken to enforce the curfew on its first night, by doing so, later events don't keep happening. On the opposite extreme, the first use of force was an action taken by pure racists on the local police force, who were simply chomping at the bit to beat up on black people and couldn't wait to be legally absolved from cracking some skulls into oblivion with their lead-filled, billy clubs.
Mon, Aug 18, 2014 12:56pm
The autopsy seriously calls into question that Michael Brown was charging the cop. It appears it was an unprofessional murder, and nothing else. Just that the murder was wearing a uniform.
It says the two shots to the head were both "back to front" and "supports what witnesses said," and "that this officer should have been arrested."
It says shot to lower arm "consistent" with either facing away or having arms up to surrender.
It says there was no evidence on Brown's body of a struggle.
It says all of the gunshot wounds Michael Brown sustained were 'survivable except the one to the top of his head' -
Mon, Aug 18, 2014 12:59pm
Earl... to which eyewitness accounts are you referring? All three say Michael Brown was surrendering when killed with the final bullet to the top of the head.
You aren't listening to that propagandist Breitbart again are you? I thought we covered that nothing they say can be trusted....
Mon, Aug 18, 2014 1:13pm
And just in, the video being used to discredit Michael Brown was confiscated by the police in their search up and down the street for evidence to clear their officer. There is no confirmation it is even the dead black. Furthermore, the attorney for the store where the transaction took place insisted they did not call 911 since the crime was insignificant in their eyes, like the theft of a pack of gum.
The owner of the store disputed the claim that they or an employee called 911, saying a customer inside the store made the call. They also say St. Louis County issues the warrants for the hard drive of surveillance video Friday.
Police therefore did not see the video until long after the unarmed teenager, Michael Brown, was shot dead in the street.
Any claim that the video justifies the racist cop willfully killing an unarmed man trying to surrender to authorities, is simply the Fergastan's chief of polices attempt to justify the killing of black people on his streets. There is no law and order issue here, except that the cops are the ones who need punished. This is the racist south all over again, and the Koch-Brother-funded Republicans are to blame.
Those element should have been ostracized from society, not enhanced, rewarded, and held to high acclaim.
However, back to Earl's statement, if the victim had been charging the officer with intent to kill, the officer would have been justified, and I would agree with his action... But, a racist is a racist. A racist with a gun, (no matter what his color(see Rhodesia)) unless held in check, gets to act out his wildest fantasy... and if that person is a policeman, he gets to face no consequences for expressing his immature anger.
Mon, Aug 18, 2014 1:22pm
Now, Fergastan police just leaked (condition of anonymity to Washington Post) marijuana was in Michael Brown's system.
I'm wondering how soon Earl will bring up that this proves he then deserved to be shot? Heck, might as well kill all those in Colorado and Washington State while we are at it......
Mon, Aug 18, 2014 1:31pm
kavips: Look at my first post on this thread for the unedited eye-witness account...this is only one of several I have heard.
The store owners probably didn't call 911...and when questioned about the video by police they insisted on being un-named...and now that their names/store location were revealed...they too have been looted and are receiving death threats.
IMHO, this is another sad story of a youth making a very bad choice(s)...bum-rushing an armed police officer is about as wise as the NASCAR driver who ran towards an oncoming race car at night while wearing black racing suit.
And, how in the world is any of this due to the Koch Brothers or Republicans? Too much time spent on Progressive blogs kavips?
Mon, Aug 18, 2014 1:34pm
Furthermore, let us remember that this kid graduated from high school This kid would be starting college today, if not for that single officer who hates black people...
It is hard for any one to leave poverty. This is the wrong way to do it... This was not a thug. Just a black kid. If the president had a boy, this could be his son. Anyone who supports the police in this case has to really look inside themselves and determine their real motive and insure themselves, it is not because they hate black people too.....
Figures... and it is a doctored piece of tape... The original has been playing on CNN a week now.
C'mon Earl.. We're smarter than that here. Stop feeding us propaganda pieces of information....
Mon, Aug 18, 2014 2:49pm
kavips: The first two autopsies have supported the story of the police officer...the video of the "little kid" committing a strong-armed robbery is also documentation of his scenario of "attack"...he doubled-back on the store clerk just as he supposedly did to the cop...so who is spreading propaganda? How in the world do you know the officer hated black people (more propaganda)...maybe the officer and those making claims against him should be given polygraph tests...anyone found guilty of lying should face harsh penalties for their actions...the cop should receive life in prison (which would be hell for a cop) and any witnesses who lie should face serious jail time for attempting to ruin another persons life.
Mon, Aug 18, 2014 3:31pm
Earl. your defense flies against common sense.
All three autopsies are consistent. At question is whether the officer shot in self protection (no) or shot for elimination (yes).. In your scenario, explain how the officer shot directly down the on top of the head... Did he grow little wings and fly up direcly over Michael Brown to deliver the final shot, which is the one btw that killed him?
Mike from Delaware
Mon, Aug 18, 2014 3:55pm
What we need here is a simple retelling of the actual event without the bias. As Joe Friday used to say, just the facts ma'am.
Did the cops on patrol know that Michael Brown had robbed the store? My understanding is no they did not as it had happened moments ago. If that is the case, why then did the cops stop Brown?
Brown having just stolen those cigars might have thought the cops were going to arrest him for the theft. He may have panicked and cops being cops, may have copped an atitude as they usually do with a traffic stop that just made this situation more dicy.
The weird part of the story as I understand it though is the evidence seems to imply Brown charged at the cops. Why would he do that knowing they have guns and he didn't? Was Brown on drugs and not in his right mind at the time?
So can anyone offer a simple version of what actually happened. Why did the cops stop them?
What happened next that caused that cop to shoot Brown, 6 times? Was the cops life in real danger? If so how was the cop in danger as Michael Brown didn't have a gun and weren't there two cops there? What was Brown's friend doing during all this? Fact is he didn't get shot or roughed up. So what did he do differently than Brown?
There just is something missing from this story. If this story happened in Greenville or Hockessin where a well to do white kid stole a box of cigars from Jansen's Market, would the cops have reacted the same way? This is what I believe has angered the black community both in Ferguson and across the nation. Cops have a attitude problem as it is, but they seem to ratchet it up even more when in "working class" neighborhoods and then even more it appears when dealing with minorities.
Some questions come to mind: why does a city of 21,000 [Ferguson] that is mostly black have a police department that only 3 or 4 of their cops are black, the rest are white?
I'd ask the same question of any city police force like Wilmington, as our fair city is now 85% minority, my guess is minority cops in Wilmington are not the majority of the force. So are we simply one incident away from seeing what happened in Ferguson? Have we been lucky or have our white cops been better trained?
Can white cops be trained so that this sort of thing won't happen. The other side of that coin is how well do black cops do in suburban settings where most of the population is white? Do they treat folks better than their white counterparts do in the city?
The cops have a tough job to do, but somehow we've got to get passed this sort of thing where a citizen has to fear being beat or shot by a cop just because of their skin color, not because of what they may be doing at that moment.
Many unanswered questions that the black community fears will get swept under the rug.
Mon, Aug 18, 2014 4:34pm
Good questions Mike. The answer is that Michael Brown is not accused of taking those cigars. He would have had to change clothes first, since what he is wearing is different in the video and when dead on the street.
It was just a simple..."hey, boy, what are you doing crossing the street here" type of altercation which the police officer then tried to pull Michael into the car, and because he was too big to fit through the window, he was able to escape. Since the police officer would be laughed off the racist Fergastan force for letting a black kid get away, he had no other option but to shoot him. Since the kid, if he lived, would have incriminated him anyway, he had no other option but make sure his side of the story never ever got told....
That is the .... rest of the story.
Mon, Aug 18, 2014 5:09pm
But wanted to pick up on a point Mike stated, and run with it... Which is about the effect of skin color on this type of situation. I noted that Republicans always overreact with violence when dealing with any problem.. Example: If someone's shoe is untied in London, McCain wants to bomb them.
On the other hand, Democrats tend to be too weak. The frustration building up in Wilmington's poor sections is simply because the administration does not want to do what is needed to be done. Which is to arrest everyone they can, and hold them indefinitely, until they earn their get-out-of-jail card by giving up information on who is shooting. Just as in the Anwar province of Iraq, the only way these atrocities continuously occur, is due to the silence of the population who knows who the killers are, but won't say. (When the Anwar population switched sides, the terrorist were run off). There are two reasons. One is fear from the criminals themselves; the other is fear from the authorities....
Getting information is the key. Knowing those few who persist in pulling the trigger. So arrest those loitering, jaywalking (like Michael Brown) and hold them until either their maximum legal holding time expiration comes up, or they give out information allowing the police to know who and who not to go after.
There is no problem going after the criminals. We have a good and brave police force. There IS a problem when you have lots of people supporting and hiding those same criminals. Simply trading future jail time for information is a low cost way of finding who is little and who is big, and then knocking out the bigs, without wasting time on the littles.
But, though doing this would go over well in a white neighborhood, having police in a black neighborhood do the same doesn't go over...
Out West, where everyone was white, we hunted outlaws down. Elliot Ness, white, hunted down Al Capone (white). The same tactics must be used here in Wilmington, and all need to get over the fact that though it appears to be a battle between white and black, it really should be a battle between good and evil. Evil makes not preference based on the color of ones skin.
Mike from Delaware
Mon, Aug 18, 2014 5:43pm
Kavips: Interesting, thanks for the clarification. So Brown was wearing different clothes within a few minutes after the robbery, so logically that does imply it wasn't Brown in the store stealing cigars. Was Michael Brown carrying a box of cigars when the cops attacked him as some have said? Sadly that purchase of cigars might have cost him his life. Talk about being in the wrong place at the wrong time, and cops making an assumption or as you said, being Southern style cops so these are black kids so must be guilty of something, rather than doing their jobs correctly as in being a detective and find out if this is even the same person.
So the cop was doing a hey boy, you're in a heap of trouble 'southern' routine on those kids. The cop tried to pull Brown in the car through the window? The cop was too lazy to get out of the car? Too many donuts I guess.
If Michael Brown's build is at all close to the video of the kid who did steel the cigars, that cop must have been on drugs, there's no way that big kid was fitting in that car window.
OK, so if I got this right, the cops stopped to harass those kids as they were crossing the street and the cop had them come up to their cop car where the cop tried to pull him into his car. Brown was able to break away, now the confusing part for me. If I had been Brown I'd have high tailed it out of as fast as my feet could go. Didn't the autopsy show that Brown got hit 6 times in the front, not the back? So are you saying the cop shot Brown while still in the car? Or did the cop finally get out of the car and then shoot Brown?
Or did the cop actually get out of the car at the beginning and tried to push Brown into the back seat of the car, but why through the car window why not open the car door and shove him in? That would be difficult enough to do with someone fighting you.
But OK, failing to get Brown into the car I'm guessing the cop and Brown tussled? Brown breaks free and probably is backing away still facing the cops [there were two cops, right, so what was the other cop doing]? Brown probably wanted to flee, but if the cop is right there facing you, not a wise move. So then the cop shot him, 6 times. A Taser would be bad enough and you only need one shot of that to bring someone down and make them quiver and not able to move. A gun, six shots. I'd like to give the cop the benefit of the doubt, but frankly don't see how the cop can be in the right. Brown was unarmed, unless you consider a box of cigars a weapon. Also they had no reason to stop those guys as the cops on patrol I believe didn't know about the robbery, so as you said, were harassing those kids needlessly. I've not heard any logical reason for them stopping those kids.
Even if Brown got mouthy with him [always a bad move as cops have no sense of humor]. You still don't shoot someone. This whole thing is a bazaar situation. This story kind of has that Trevon Martin feel to it. Some black kid was shot and killed by some cop who has no business being a cop.
Feel free to correct any part I didn't get correct. I'm just trying to understand what exactly happened.
Mike from Delaware
Mon, Aug 18, 2014 5:46pm
Kavips you posted that longer post, while I was typing my post. Well said about going after the criminals, no matter what there color.
Mon, Aug 18, 2014 10:01pm
Mike: Brown was 6'-4" and 300#...he was indeed high on pot when the officer called him over to his patrol truck because Brown and his friend were walking down the middle of the road and blocking traffic...from what I've read so far the second cop got there after the shooting (correct me if I'm wrong on that one).
"In your scenario, explain how the officer shot directly down the on top of the head... Did he grow little wings and fly up direcly over Michael Brown to deliver the final shot, which is the one btw that killed him?"
kavips: Ever watch football? Brown (6'-4"/300#) was (according to the cop and several witnesses) charging full-force with head down...Brown had already (according to the cop) punched him in the face and attempted to take his weapon from him...Brown then started to run away and the policeman chased him (as law enforcement is trained to do)...at that point Brown turned back around and charged...so the officer shot (hitting him in the arm 4 times) and finally 2 in his head.
I'm done commenting on this story until new facts surface...but I would like to know why this particular shooting is causing riots, has the New Black Panthers, Rev. Jessie Jackson , Rev. Al Sharpton, DOJ Holder and 0bama's full attention YET Chicago is completely IGNORED by this group! How many young black men die every week in the president's own "home town" of Chicago? In Detroit? In Wilmington?...
Mike from Delaware
Mon, Aug 18, 2014 11:32pm
Ok, so we add another piece to the puzzle. Brown was high at the time, he charged at the cop ( who was by himself ). Brian's built like a football player. The cop I assume shot at him to stop him, 6 shots. Shame the cop didn't have his taser out instead of his gun. Then this wouldn't be a murder case. Earl's right until we know fir such all the facts, it's hard to know exactly who was right.
So Brown was high when the cop told him to get out of the street & not block the road. Possibly Brown mouthed off to the cop, being high. Cops don't respond well to that. So then the cop got out of his car & tried to arrest Brown, brown fought back & got away from the cop & then charged at the cop. This appears where Mike Brown screwed up. Then the cop is going to taser your butt, but sadly the cop instead shot him instead. So I now can understand why the cop fired at Brown, but don't understand why he used a gun rather than a taser. His intent should have been to subdue Brown not kill him. So it still looks like the cop used deadly excessive force when the taser would have been the better choice.
Tue, Aug 19, 2014 2:15am
There goes Earl with false information... Geez... will it ever stop?
No one knows if Michael Brown was high. For one, if high on marijuana, none of this would have occurred. Marijuana is very mellow and it is insane to think that someone high on marijuana would grab an officer's gun or even tussle with an officer.... (it would be very comic to see it being done in extreme slow motion, with his own commentary about what he was next going to attempt to do.)
Since there is no confirmation of the levels of marijuana Michael Brown had, one must wonder how Earl is so confident he was high. Did Earl:
A. Give Michael Brown a lit joint so he personally knows Michael Brown was high?
B. Did Earl and Michael Brown share a joint so he can assume that Michael Brown was as high as he felt?
Bottom line is if Earl has no personal knowledge of Michael Brown's marijuana toxicity level, and if the Medical Examiner has refused to release or even comment on whether or not the level was high, how then can Earl state with certainty that Michael Brown was high?
HE CAN'T. HE MAKES STUFF UP TO ARGUE HIS CASE.
And Earl states they were walking down the road blocking traffic? Witnesses (who aren't quoted on Breitbart) say that was not true. They were crossing the road to get to their house. I do it all the time in my residental neighborhood. Of course, a cop who shoots someone in cold blood, isn't going to say: Oh, I goofed! I was just playing with him and then got mad and said "what the heck, he is black. I'll shoot him.. With those all those powdered sugary donuts I ate, I don't feel like running a couple of blocks today." I mean, just because they are racists, doesn't mean they are stupid enough to self incriminate themselves...
Of course he is going to tell a tall tale. And likewise, of course Earl is going to swallow his story, hook, line and sinker.... That pattern has kept the Republican Party alive for years. One side lies, the other accepts nothing else as truth...
And apparently that kid with the cigars was not Mike. Video evidence suggests the two people are different sizes. Remember, that video was released over the objection of a lot of people in St. Louis's justice system who thought it very inconclusive. Mike Brown is smaller and that is why the cop felt he could pull him inside the window... The kid in the video looks like Cassius Clay. No police officer white or black would pull Cassius Clay in through a car window...
Mike, you asked why Mike stopped running away? He was shot. Witness say the police officer got out of the car and shot 4 shots at Michael Brown. His buddy running with him say one of them grazed his arm turning him around. At that point reality set in and Mike Brown decided to take his chance with the police and court than risk getting shot. He then got on his knees and put his hands up. The officer walked up to him, pointed his gun at Mike, said nothing, and fired four shots almost point blank at him. Mike fell forward onto the ground, head hitting the concrete with a loud hollow thump. The police officer shot point-blank into the top of the head.... All witnesses except for the police officer, collaborate this story.... exactly.
Now as to why the police officer would target 3 black people crossing the road to get to their house, and would call one over and then, grab him and try to pull him into the car....
Well, prior to Michael Brown's shooting, a study was actually done on the arrests in and around St. Louis. Here is what it found out about Fergastan.
The story was picked up by Newsweek. (Of course Earl will say it is a liberal journalism piece and its news can't be trusted because it doesn't jive with his pre-ordained vision of the world)....
Despite Ferguson’s relative poverty, fines and court fees comprise the second largest source of revenue for the city, a total of 2,635,400,” according to the ArchCity Defenders report. And in 2013, the Ferguson Municipal Court issued 24,532 arrest warrants and 12,018 cases, “or about 3 warrants and 1.5 cases per household.”
Get it now? The Fergies were funding their city on the crimes of blacks. If they won't do the crime, then their job was to find something to make them do the time.
That sounds impossible to believe. How can that George Wallace-type mentality still be going on 50 years later, especially when Justice Scalia and Justice Roberts said "racism is over"
Republican and Tea Party blind eyes are your answer. Just look at how Earl, (and Pizza) who vociferously complain how Obama is stealing our freedom with Affordable Health Care, (tyranny, tyranny, tyranny) but care nothing, nothing, that white Tea Partiers trump up fines off false arrests...
Exacerbating the problem, the report says, are "a number of operational procedures that make it even more difficult for defendants to navigate the courts." A Ferguson court employee reported, for example, that “the bench routinely starts hearing cases 30 minutes before the appointed time and then locks the doors to the building as early as five minutes after the official hour, a practice that could easily lead a defend net arriving even slightly late to receive an additional charge for failure to appear.”
This is real. This is documented. This evidence based on viable research. So just imagine if even stories of these practices just circulating through neighborhoods. The residents’ perception that the system is unfairly stacked against them, gives important context for the depth of the present outrage.
This is much more than killing a boy. That is important, but the emotion has been building up for years. The killing is an outlet making the showing of their rage at least defensible...
Republicans brought this on. Especially the Tea Party Republicans though I really don't know if it matters anymore to make the distinction. The Tea Party basically runs the entire Republican agenda...
As Newsweek found states: "There are 90 municipalities in St. Louis County that range from 12 people to 50,000 people. Eighty-six of them have their own courts. They have their own police forces,” “What ends up being the product of all that is just a low-level sense of harassment on a daily basis. The clients that we represent feel that. It’s palpable for them.”“They resent it because it’s not about public safety,”“These aren’t violent criminals. These are poor people.”
How to fix it.
A. Get Rid of Republicans.
B. Raise Taxes (Top marginal rate to 50% and make Capital gains rates equal to income.
C. Begin with those funds to rebuild infrastructure, requiring construction workers.
D. Hire inspectors, lawyers, and accountants to monitor every business and ensure they are operating within the laws set by society itself through their representatives.
Jobs, in the hands of those now rioting in Fergastan, will go a long way to making sure this is a one time thing, and does not become a trend as it did in the 60's and early 70's.
It all starts with eliminating Republicans. We could be in the middle of a roaring economy right now, and would be, if the governments had not been cut by over $1 million jobs by the incoming Tea Party of 2010. They are to blame for all the misfortune... It's a shame we can' pack them all in a cargo ship container and send them back to Somalia where they would be happier... 1% in power, unlimited guns, and a theocracy.
Tue, Aug 19, 2014 8:24am
Wow...long post with little real information.
Pot effects different people in different ways...some people mellow and others think they are invincible when high. You are correct that I don't know how high he was...we only know (from the coroner) that he did have marijuana in his system.
The violent protestors/instigators are NOT from Ferguson...I guess many OWS folks have found a new place to protest/riot. The locals actually seem to want to find out the truth and are protesting peacefully..."all we are saying is give peace a chance".
The truth will hopefully come out in the judicial system, but it's going to be very difficult finding an unbiased jury of peers (most thinking jurors realize their lives could be in danger if they make a decision in favor of the police). If the New Black Panthers and other "revolutionaries" are already rioting, throwing Molotov cocktails and shooting at cops...what would happen to the businesses/real residents/local law enforcement/governor with an innocent verdict for the cop? Chaos.
Tue, Aug 19, 2014 8:36am
"Witness say the police officer got out of the car and shot 4 shots at Michael Brown. His buddy running with him say one of them grazed his arm turning him around. At that point reality set in and Mike Brown decided to take his chance with the police and court than risk getting shot. He then got on his knees and put his hands up. The officer walked up to him, pointed his gun at Mike, said nothing, and fired four shots almost point blank at him. Mike fell forward onto the ground, head hitting the concrete with a loud hollow thump. The police officer shot point-blank into the top of the head.... All witnesses except for the police officer, collaborate this story.... exactly.~kavips
Absolute malarkey! And, there are now even more reports coming out that support the cop...just check out the Drudge Report (who pulls news from the left, "breitbart" and the middle)
Mike from Delaware
Tue, Aug 19, 2014 8:37am
Kavips said: "And apparently that kid with the cigars was not Mike. Video evidence suggests the two people are different sizes. Remember, that video was released over the objection of a lot of people in St. Louis's justice system who thought it very inconclusive. Mike Brown is smaller and that is why the cop felt he could pull him inside the window... The kid in the video looks like Cassius Clay. No police officer white or black would pull Cassius Clay in through a car window...
Mike, you asked why Mike stopped running away? He was shot. Witness say the police officer got out of the car and shot 4 shots at Michael Brown. His buddy running with him say one of them grazed his arm turning him around. At that point reality set in and Mike Brown decided to take his chance with the police and court than risk getting shot. He then got on his knees and put his hands up. The officer walked up to him, pointed his gun at Mike, said nothing, and fired four shots almost point blank at him. Mike fell forward onto the ground, head hitting the concrete with a loud hollow thump. The police officer shot point-blank into the top of the head.... All witnesses except for the police officer, collaborate this story.... exactly."
If this is correct, it is appalling and explains why folks there and around the nation are so upset. It is hard to believe there are people who hate others so much that they'd do what you just described. I guess I spend a majority of my time with other Christians so I'm not exposed to this sort of thing, plus being white might also help.
This is like watching Law and Order except the actor doesn't get up and wipe off the ketchup [or whatever they use] off himself when the director yells cut. This is real. A young man died for no reason, it appears. Even if he was high be it on pot or crack. Even if he was carrying the box of cigars and had indeed robbed that store, he should still be alive. We have not given the cops the power of judge, jury, and executioner. They're simply the folks who catch you, and bring in to the jail house, alive. The detectives investigate to help the DA win his/her case.
That Newsweek article is also upsetting. We all complain how Elsmere and sometimes Newport put cops out to catch speeders as a cash cow for their towns. This is that on steroids. Not enough blacks being bad this week, let's go roust them up and create a crime so we can arrest a few. Missouri doesn't sound like a great place to live. They're trying to out do the South???
Another question, as the town of Ferguson is mostly black, and the police force is mostly white, is the mayor and city council all white or is it more like Wilmington where many blacks, including the last three mayors, have been black so essentially the black majority are running the city, not the white minority.
If the white minority is running it, how can that be? Do they have illegal laws there that keep blacks from running or voting? If blacks are running the town, then why do they keep those bigoted cops on the force? There just seems to be so much wrong there.
Oh, one point of clarification if I may, Missouri Governor Jay Nixon is a Democrat. So it may not be entirely accurate to say the GOP/TEA folks are responsible. I don't know if Missouri is a Red State as far as presidential elections go, but the head guy is a Democrat.
Tue, Aug 19, 2014 9:02am
Mike: You keep saying that the Ferguson police were racists...where (other than kavips) are you reading this as fact? IF they are racists then they should all be fired at once, if not then the slanderous charge of racism should cease.
From the reports I've read the reason Brown is dead is because (1)he punched a police officer in the face, (2) he attempted to take the officer's pistol, and (after running away) (3)decided to turn back around and finish off the cop. That is the complete opposite of kavips' storyline...but of the two it makes a lot more sense than "racist cop kills innocent kid because he's racist" storyline.
Tue, Aug 19, 2014 10:24am
The most interesting part of this whole saga is the complete absence of the rabid 2nd Amendment groups. Remember when Cliven Bundy and his gang were standing up to the "jack-booted thugs" from the government, and how angry "sovereign citizens" and militia-types from all over the country were in such an uproar?
Where are they now? Why aren't they swarming into Ferguson to stand with the residents against the military-armed police? Is it because they are all white?
Tue, Aug 19, 2014 12:46pm
dunmore... it is because like Earl, they refuse to accept that a conservative person is wrong, therefore it must be the entire community of blacks who saw the operation go down, and are telling the same story who must be lying, and not the cop fearing the rest of his life is over, unless he lies his way out of this mess.
It is the same disregard for reality, that says, your dead children don't trump my 2nd amendment rights; that says, give the rich all your money and they will make you richer ; that says, put God in charge of the White House (elect us) and his magic will make the world suddenly great (because all sin will stop); that says, sex is bad except when I do it, so eliminate all contraception to women (except theirs of course); that says global warming is a hoax (pay no attention to all the evidence around you); that says if you are working three jobs at minimum wage and still can't feed your family, you must be feeding them too much, (so do it for less so they can cut taxes on their friends the top one percent); that says we don't care about little children (send the illegals back to certain death); that says the government is evil (hey, you are late on my monthly payment, I'm entitled to that you know);
All should get the point. There is a huge disconnect inside their heads. They truly are worse than any caricature of "hippies" who were once derided for living in their own warped reality, imagining outlandish thoughts, believing them all to be true against all evidence otherwise, and totally throwing out all common sense in choosing their lifestyle. Whereas that sub culture once was liberal and tainted the Democrats in 72, the exact same drug induced state is now fed by prescription psychological drugs (Rush Limbaugh) and is tainting the Republicans and conservative causes...
The reason the Tea Party rushed to the aid a certified crook, Bundy, who owed millions to the US Government that every other rancher paid without question and now,... supports using brutal and overwhelming force upon a few helpless unarmed people protesting an innocent boy's death, is because the president was "black" and he was forcing Bundy (white)to obey the law, and those forcing non-criminal "blacks" to obey the law, are "white" and should be allowed to employ force the militias rushed to stop from happening to "white" Bundy...
Can there be any other difference? Tea Party Republicans live in a myth world, one that doesn't exist, where the Africans and Mexican are trying to steal their stuff, so go ahead and hand it over to the Koch Brothers and their corporate friends now, to keep blacks and Hispanics from getting anything....
Racist? Can there be any other excuse that explains this unique problem?
The Tea Party is completely insane... Example: Let's look at the selectiveness of Earl's comments above...
"others think they are invincible when high" On pot? Really? Only someone who has never been around anyone who high on TCP could say something like that... That is absolutely false. Sounds like someone is still stuck on "Reefer Madness" reruns; that was made in the thirties I believe as a propaganda piece, and commits factual hari-kari by mixing up effects of all known drugs and pinning their effects all on marijuana.... It just isn't true.
"most thinking jurors realize their lives could be in danger if they make a decision in favor of the police" While ignoring the actual reports of Fergastan which show the exact opposite happens to "black folk" who get in the way of the "white" machine.... They fear being hauled off, shot by white KKK memebers more than they do their friends and neighbors.
And using the Drudge Report as a factual piece of evidence? Oh, my Goodness! That was discredited back in 2006 long before Fox News became so blatant. Most people believe that Fox News was forced to become the spokesorganization by those insane power brokers supporting Cheney's "shadow government" solely because the Drudge Report got caught in enough lies that it is now deemed to be unhinged. I'm as surprised it would come up here, as I would if you brought up the John Birch Society as a credible source. What kind of world do you live in where anyone would take the Drudge Report seriously? They support Common Core. They support Israel wiping out Palestine. They support cutting taxes on the top one percent. They support Hobby Lobby ability to hold all employees accountable to their weird religion. They support the elimination of Roe vrs Wade; they support the pentecostal teachings of only one denomination, the Church of God, and the elimination of all others including Catholics, as being too tolerant of sin in their views. The Drudge report was mostly funded by the military-industrial complex and seeks to push policies that enable it to keep feeding itself at your's and your fellow citizens' economic peril..
Earl, this scenario (quoted below) is completely fabricated. This take on the information could only come from the police officer (who else would know?) and is in direct opposition of all those witnesses who have come forward...
"Brown is dead is because (1)he punched a police officer in the face, (2) he attempted to take the officer's pistol, and (after running away) (3)decided to turn back around and finish off the cop."
No one but Brown and the police officer would know if this was true. Those with Brown, and those peeking from their windows, all say that the officer tried to intimidate Brown, that Brown tried to get away, that the officer shot Brown while he was surrendering, on his knees, hands up in the air.
Let see... over 1000 versions of one side. and one version of the other side, and only that one is being pushed by the extreme insane group that took over the tea party and wants to eliminate all blacks from America, and Earl here... Hmmm. who will I believe....
The guilty person, or everyone one who saw it go down...?
I guess that depends whether I am one of those crazy, insane supporters of white racial purity; a member of the Tea Party....
Tue, Aug 19, 2014 1:39pm
kavips: As of now there are more than 12 witnesses who have said they saw the scenario I described. Neither you nor I were there, but the version you choose to believe just sounds too far-fetched to me... hopefully the truth will come out soon and either the cop goes directly to jail if he did execute the kid in broad daylight in front of multiple witnesses, or it's determined he did what he's trained to do in the line of duty as an enforcer of the law.
Remember the friend who was with Brown and testified he was shot in the back as he ran away?...that's been proven false via the autopsy.
Just as beer sometimes gives one "beer muscles" (i.e. a person thinks they can fight anyone and win after a few too many beers)...the same happens to some after taking a few too many tokes.
Mike from Delaware
Tue, Aug 19, 2014 1:57pm
I'll admit EarlGrey's version of the story makes more sense to my mind and would cause far less nightmares about jack-booted thug cops, but that doesn't mean it is the correct version. This is where the problem is, there are two versions of this story that are world's apart. One the black community endorses and one that the police of Ferguson endorse. Until we know without a shadow of a doubt what really happened, we are at a standstill to make further determinations as to guilt, who was right or wrong, etc.
Sadly the news reports today are that the people of Ferguson are NOT the ones doing the violent protesting; those are outside folks. How sad, the people of Ferguson are rightly upset that one of their own died, in what may be for no reason [if Kavip's version is correct] as they mount a peaceful protest during the day. Outsiders are using their grief to turn what during the day reminds me of the protests of Martin Luther King that moved a nation, into something ugly and vile at night that's not worthy of what that great man accomplished in the 1960's.
Add your comment: Attention: In an attempt to promote a level of civility and personal
responsibility in blog discussions, we now require you to be a member of
the WDEL Members Only Group in order to post a comment. Your Members
Only Group username and password are required to process your post.
You can join the WDEL Members Only Group for free by clicking here.
If you are already a member but have forgotten your username or password, please
Please register your post with your WDEL Members Only Group username and password below.